Am I missing something?

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Zachos
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Am I missing something?

Post by Zachos »

Why is it that in periods which don't have plate armour, people can easily get away with leather/maille gauntlets, and not lose their fingers, whereas in later medieval times, wearing anything other that mittens is pushing it?

Confused

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WorkMonkey
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Post by WorkMonkey »

cus we're not actually trying to kill anybody? :?
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Post by Vermin »

WorkMonkey wrote:cus we're not actually trying to kill anybody? :?
Exactly - For the same reason we don’t stick spears in faces etc

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Post by Zachos »

So later medieval re-enactors are all psychopaths?
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Dave B
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Post by Dave B »

Most of the earlier periods use light spears, not bloomin great heavy billhooks?
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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

Dave B wrote:Most of the earlier periods use light spears, not bloomin great heavy billhooks?
*slaps forehead*

Does that explain why swordsmen use mittens though?
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Post by WorkMonkey »

I think weapons in general were longer and heavier because they're being made to combat the advent of plate armour, I wouldn't fancy getting whacked on the hand by a bill using the glove I use, but even being hit in the head dont particually hurt with a one handed spear, different weights and types of weapons, ennit bruv.
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Colin MacDonald
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Post by Colin MacDonald »

Plate necessitates making heavier strikes simply so that the wearer can feel them. Hands can get in the way of blows aimed at other areas. Reasonable explanation?

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Post by Dave B »

Or perhaps late medieval reenactors are just a bunch of big-girls-blouses?
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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

Could it be that later medieval armour is more forgiving and so people are let on the field with a lower level of competancy?
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Post by Vermin »

Zachos wrote:Could it be that later medieval armour is more forgiving and so people are let on the field with a lower level of competancy?
I don't think that is automatically the case -

In reality you would hit hands, faces etc - Your armour just allows you to fight in a more accurate way

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Post by WorkMonkey »

Zachos wrote:Could it be that later medieval armour is more forgiving and so people are let on the field with a lower level of competancy?
More forgiving? Not if you're taking swings at someone with a 6ft hammer 8)
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Post by nathan »

Main difference is that the 'early' groups (Vike/Regia/Conquest and various sub/splinter-groups of that tradition) rely on the shield to parry incoming attacks therefore your hand tends not to be in the way of incoming shots anywhere near as much (thus fewer injuries). Plus your hand isn't covered in metal therefore you tend to alter your combat form to avoid being hit in the hand)

Generic Muddieval (i.e. Fed) combat relies on the weapon (be it a sword or stonking greet polearm to parry incoming shots .... therefore your hands are far more exposed ... that and the fact that with your hand in gauntlet you get far less cautions about being whacked there.

Having done a lot of re-enactment first aid, hand shots tend to be a far bigger issue on earlier groups because of this.

Emphasis on telegraphed / FAST type combat amongst some groups really cuts down on hand hits (you know where to keep your hand so it's out of the target zone).

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Post by Phil the Grips »

The difference between early and high/late medieval is the difference between rugby and American football- cos the latter has the armour available the nature of play is different and so the potential ofr injury is diferent.
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Post by stephen wootten »

also we dont get hurt realy anywhere else so we let everyone know that our pinky is a bit of the wrong shape than it was before the battle.... :lol:

just my exsperiances and oppinions and bad spellings and grammar.

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Post by James Bretlington »

This begs a question, and please excuse me if this has been answered elsewhere on the board, but what are the styles of fighting used in reenactments?

I'm coming from a background of rehearsed shows using stage combat techniques, that require extensive partnering to make it look good at speed.

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Post by Phil the Grips »

For medival of all kinds (C9-15th roughly) I call it "competitive stage fighting".

At it's very simplest it is known as "5s"- 4 blows on the major diagonals and a thrust to stomach and 5 corresponding defences/direct blocks.

Target is the torso and upper limbs and absolutely no headshots and then go for it...

There are lots of variations (normally among folk that know each other, different armour types, ignoring some areas to make it last longer, different number of "hitpoints" etc) but, when different groups get together this is the simplest and most common.

Spears are kept low (and all polearms using this method become spears in effect), shields are not used offensively (certainly no battering with the rim) and it all ends up being likened to a hockey "bull off"

Something like this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCMOUGND ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1h26CGd ... re=related
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Post by Alan_F »

WorkMonkey wrote:
Zachos wrote:Could it be that later medieval armour is more forgiving and so people are let on the field with a lower level of competancy?
More forgiving? Not if you're taking swings at someone with a 6ft hammer 8)
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Post by zauberdachs »

of course there are different standards the world over:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLeRDk4 ... re=related
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Post by Dave B »

zauberdachs wrote:of course there are different standards the world over:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLeRDk4 ... re=related
I wouldn't like to do the risk assesment for those dudes.
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Post by zauberdachs »

Dave B wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:of course there are different standards the world over:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLeRDk4 ... re=related
I wouldn't like to do the risk assesment for those dudes.
It'd be gruesome...
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Post by James Bretlington »

Thanks, and dear lord what were they doing in the Vyborg video...

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Post by narvek »

no headshots? Really? Well, here, in Czech is a head prime target...Couse, helmet is required all the times, it's sometimes only safe spot to hit people...
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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

narvek wrote:no headshots? Really? Well, here, in Czech is a head prime target...Couse, helmet is required all the times, it's sometimes only safe spot to hit people...
The group I started with practice headshots with swords when wearing helmets, but didn't practice thrusts. The MSS which I'm now a member of practices thrusts but no headshots. I've ended up practicing both, so that I can defend against whatever my opponent decides to do. It really depends on the group and environment.
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Post by narvek »

yeah, it's no thrusts with swords over here. Well, to tell you the truth most of guys here are badly done clankies(really!! badly done) sometimes wearing just plate without the jack....So they're afraid of the thrusts...
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Post by Biro »

Phil the Grips wrote: Something like this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1h26CGd ... re=related
Maybe its something to do with grabbing weapons..... If you're trying to grab weapons, then you're exposing your hands quite a lot.

I've also seen clankies blocking with their hands/forearms - sometimes while trying to catch em - in effect using the armour to block with.. This just doesn't happen in earlier periods. Anything below the elbow is generally out of bounds and you keep those bony-bits away from enemy swings. Grabbing weapons is generally a no-no too.
zauberdachs wrote:of course there are different standards the world over:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLeRDk4 ... re=related
looks like the mosh-pit at the work christmas do :)

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Post by IDEEDEE »

Those Russian vids! Flamin' Nora!!! :shock: Herstmonkey it ain't....

Still... if that's what you're expecting/trained/geared up for..
Looks great for the crowds (at least, for those safe up on the walls..).

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Post by Aelfric »

Zachos wrote:The group I started with practice headshots with swords when wearing helmets, but didn't practice thrusts. The MSS which I'm now a member of practices thrusts but no headshots. I've ended up practicing both, so that I can defend against whatever my opponent decides to do. It really depends on the group and environment.
And that is probably another reason, most earlier period combat is single society, so it's Regia v Regia, Vike v Vike etc so everyone on the field is trained to the same standard, playing to the same rule and knows roughly what their opponent is and isn't going to do.

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Re: Am I missing something?

Post by Colin Middleton »

Zachos wrote:Why is it that in periods which don't have plate armour, people can easily get away with leather/maille gauntlets, and not lose their fingers, whereas in later medieval times, wearing anything other that mittens is pushing it?

Confused

Zac
They can't. Our group do both early 13th C and late 15th C and last year our most common recurring injury was to the hands in the 13th C tournaments. We put this down to inadequate protections (and obviously people getting all excited, etc) exactly beacuse people are wearing welding gloves with a bit of mail on them (ok, so a bit more authentic than that, but you get my point).
I don't have many problems with hand injuries in our 13th C shows, which I put down to my gauntles being made with a soft and squishy padded back between the leather glove and the mail. The mail spreads the impact and the pad absorbs the energy.
You are using lighter weapons, but care and control are still very important.
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Post by WorkMonkey »

Alan_F wrote:
I thought you just threw bananas at people until they ran away crying?

Once I've used up the spear, axe, sword, seax and two back up blunt "eating" knives that I take with me, then I either run away, or crack open the side pouch full of bannanas and start lobbing away.
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